Displacement Dispelling: Motorcycle Engine Evolution

Transcript

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Displacement battles continue with motorcycle engines getting bigger each year. But is it needed?

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Welcome to the Throttle and Roast podcast. I'm your host, Niels Meersschaert. Bikes continue to get bigger. While a big bike might have been five or 600 cc's in the 1970s. Today's big bikes are almost two liters.

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Prices have been escalating with the increased displacement, making bikes which were once very cheap to be priced similar to some cars. At the same time, performance has improved. But is it too much? We'll cover these and more in today's episode.

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So let's start with a bit of looking at the engine displacement in street motorcycles has been growing, and if we compare it to roughly the 1980s, bikes have gotten about 50% bigger for the same equivalent model as we had in the eighties. And I'll give a couple of examples of that. So the original BMW GS was 800 cc's and the newest one is 1300 CCS.

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That's more than a 50% increase since the 1980s. And if we compare a shovelhead Harley from the sixties to mid eighties, these were about 12 to 1300 cc's, whereas a currently hardly big twin is nearly 1900 CC. That's a 50% increase since the 1980s and it's gotten so big, in fact, that today we consider an 8 to 900 CC motorcycle mid-size, while that was a large bike in the 1980s Now of course beyond engine displacement, engine power has continued to climb.

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That same BMW R 80GS had just 50 horsepower. Now my 2012 BMW R1200GSA has 110 horsepower, while the new R1300GS has 145 horsepower. That's triple the power in just over 50% more capacity. So bikes are becoming much more powerful. And if we look back, even on sport bikes, I mean, this is the thing that really boggles the mind. When I first got into motorcycling, the Pinnacle Motorcycle that everyone loved, you heard the sound of the engines starting and the exhaust on it was a Ducati 916. And the first time I ever heard one and heard that engine, I was like, Wow, that is the voice of God. It's a beautiful, beautiful engine note.

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And that bike from the mid nineties had 114 horsepower.

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It's basically the same as my GS in terms of power, and that was a super bike back in the nineties. Now my 2015 BMW S1000R, which is not a sport bike in the sense of it's pure like a race replica, like the double R is this is the single R, it's really meant more as a high performance naked roadster has 160 horsepower versus 114 for the race replica bike back in the nineties. Now of course, if we think of comparing that 916 versus the current Panigale v4 s which has nearly 209 horsepower, it's clear that engine size has been getting bigger as well as engine performance has been getting better.

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Of course the problem with all of this is we need to realize that motorcycle performance, even on the low end, blows away most cars. Now, if we think back to the eighties and some of the performance cars that were out back then, such as like a 1985 BMW M5, this was a very high performance sports sedan 0 to 60 in that car was 7.3 seconds and a 1984 Porsche Carrera 0 to 60 was 5.3 seconds.

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So about 5 to 7 seconds between a pure sports car and a sports sedan was about what we had in the 1980s. But think about it today like a MotoGuzzi v7 0 to 60 is about 5.8 seconds. So it's it's about the same as an old Porsche Carrera was in the eighties from a basic 800 CC twin cylinder engine that's not really meant as a performance bike even going a little bit on the lower end in terms of both performance and as in price.

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Let's look at like a Royal Enfield Continental GT, the GT 650 0 to 60 is five and a half seconds. It's essentially the same as a Porsche Carrera was in the 1980s, but of course it's getting 57 miles per gallon, so it's much better fuel economy, but the same sort of performance, 0 to 60 at least not taking top speed, but 0 to 60. Same performance as you would get out of a Porsche from the 1980s.

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this is a pretty, pretty crazy comparison. Now, of course, cars have continued to also get better over time. So let's kind of move up a generation. Let's look at the 1990s and so that same sort of sports sedan. Let's look at a or more of a sports coupe. Let's look at a BMW M3 coupe, a 1997 version of that was 5.4 seconds in 0 to 60. A 1998 Dodge Viper was 4.1 seconds.

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The 1995 Porsche 911 Turbo was 3.8 seconds. And if we think of that now, let's even look at something that most people don't think as a performance motorcycle in a lot of ways, certainly not in terms of, hey, I'm going to be like a sports car, but look at like a 2020 Harley Road Glide CVO, that's a milwaukee 117. So it's a it's a bigger engine, 1900 CCS, but that bike will still do 4.9 seconds 0 to 60. It's about, you know, splitting the difference between a Dodge Viper and an M3 coupe from the nineties. So that's a big full touring motorcycle. Even look at like a 2000 vintage Honda Nighthawk 750 that was four and a half seconds, which is the same almost as a Dodge Viper from the 1990s. That was a pretty cheap bike, a Nighthawk 750. Then you go and even to some more recent bikes and again still in that cruiser vein these are not high performance motorcycles compared to some of the sport bikes but an Indian scout that'll still do 0 to 60 and 3.7 seconds with an 1100 CC engine so faster than a 911 turbo was in the mid nineties. I mean, just cars and bikes are just on different playing fields when it comes to acceleration. So let's look at something even a little bit more recent so we can compare these out. A 2024 Ford Mustang GT 0 to 60 is 4.2 seconds. Now my 2012 BMW R1200GSA is about 3.3 seconds, so it's faster than a Ford Mustang GT is today. Now a 911 Porsche 911 GTS is zero to 60 in 2. 8 seconds. My BMW 2015 model S1000R is zero to 60 in about 2.6 seconds. So my nearly ten year old sports bike is faster than a current Gen 911 GTS 0 to 60 and my more than a decade old adventure bike is still faster by nearly a second than a Ford Mustang GT. So you've got tremendous, tremendous acceleration capability out of most modern bikes, and especially when you compare them into cars and say, okay, well those are sports cars that we're comparing. Well, let's even look at some of the the modern, you know, most popular vehicles like in the United States, the number one most popular vehicle today is the Ford F-150, though now with the V8, it'll do 0 to 60 in about 4.8 seconds, which seems pretty good for for a big truck.

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But that's similar to that Harley road Glide CVO and even the Honda Nighthawk 750 from the year 2000. So even think of you know I think it's the third most popular car in the United States now is the Toyota RAV4 and its 0 to 60 is five and a half seconds, which is pretty similar to a Royal Enfield GT 650. So tremendous performance out of these bikes, The other problem, though, that's happening today is that prices are climbing with displacement. Now, I kind of looked at a few samples of this and I kind of figured that on average, for most bikes that don't have necessarily a ton of luggage and other accoutrement, but if you just think of a basic motorcycle without any of that.

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Generally, I'm finding that the dollar per cc is about $11 per CC. So what this means is that tracks with bikes like the Harley Fatboy, the Royal Enfield Interceptor. 650 Now there are some bargains that can be found, such like the Indian chief and the R18 on the bigger displacement end. They're a little bit cheaper than some other brands like let's say a Harley would be, and that's about $8 per CC, So if we think of like a what today we think of as a small motorcycle, at least in the United States, a 650 CC Royal Enfield is about $7,000 in the US, not a very expensive bike, but certainly more expensive than bikes of yesteryear were a Triumph Trident, which is of course trying to get a little bit more into the entry level, at least for triumph in terms of price point is about $8600. we go up a little bit more in terms of CCS.

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Think of a motor Guzzi V7 is$9,500 at around 850 cc's, whereas a Triumph Tiger 900 GT is about 15,000. Now granted, it's a little bit of a different comparison. One's a a basic street bike versus an adventure bike, but all these bikes just keep going up in terms of price.

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And if we get into the upper end, let's think of like, you know, the really big ones, the over 1800 ccs. So if you're looking at a naked bike and Indian chief starts at about $15,000. Same for a BMW R18 a Harley, Fatboy starts at about $22, 000. And the Triumph Rocket three storm starts at about $25000. Mind you, that's 2500 CC, so quite a bit bigger Baggers, they'll typically be starting around$24-25, 000 for most of the big cruiser style baggers that are out there and a full touring bike. The bikes that have, you know, the full top case on to them like a Harley Road Glide Ltd gold wing tour from Honda the Indian pursuit, the BMW, R18 transcontinental these are anywhere the BMW tends to be on the cheaper end at about 24,000, but you'll spend $34,000 for an Indian Pursuit. That's the same price as a car is today. So do we need that capacity because the price just climbs as we get extra displacement?

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Now, the other big thing is think of performance per CC has also been climbing and this is where I think this displacement war that we're in with most brands kind of doesn't make a lot of sense. So my 2012 BMW R1200GSA generates about 110 horsepower from a 1200 CC engine is technically 1170 cc's. The new 2024 BMW F900GS, So their quote unquote mid-sized bike generates 105 horsepower with nearly 300 fewer CCS. So similar performance for a 300 cc, but smaller bike, that's 25% smaller bike in terms of the engine displacement. And they get the same performance out of it. So why do we need these big, big, big engines anymore? Sports bikes can generate over 200 horsepower per liter of displacement today. I mean, it's insane the amount of power that you can get from these engines.

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So do you need that really, really big engine? now I'm going to get on a bit of my soapbox, so to speak, because I think this is the problem we've gotten so excited about really large displacement. It works for the manufacturers because in general, the larger the displacement, the higher the ticket price of the bike. And the beauty to me of motorcycles is you can get some really great bargains out there and you still find some of the stuff under $10,000 that are some really good bikes. You know, the Royal Enfield's, the Moto Guzzi, some of the the lower end Triumph's, you can get some good bargains, but in general you're spending much more money as you go up. And in truth, for most street use, even if you're doing full touring, about a hundred horsepower at about 500lbs is plenty of power. You will out accelerate nearly any car that's on the street. You'll outperform most supercars and it's not going to be super expensive.

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Your zero to 60 will typically be less than 5 seconds, so it's going to beat all but the best sports cars for that. And that's the big thing, is you don't necessarily need all of that engine capacity. Now. It can feel great. And I'm not going to dismay anybody who has a big Harley or I have a BMW R18, which is also a large engine capacity. There is a character to it that is there and that can feel amazing. But do you really need that sort of capacity that's in there? I mean, my my R18, for example, is 1800 CCS.

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It's about 90 horsepower from that 1800 CCS. as I mentioned earlier, are BMW F, 900 GS. So that's a, you know, less than 900 CC engine generates 105 horsepower. It actually generates more horsepower from less than half the capacity. So do we need that engine capacity?

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Probably not. And this is the thing that I think is maybe hurting us from a movement into motorcycling because everyone feels that they need to have, you know, a larger bike. They'll think of our 600 cc bike as a beginner's bike. Well, yeah, compared to a 1900 CC. Big twin.

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Sure. But do you need that?

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That's the real problem. And it makes the price that people are thinking is like, Oh, this is how I define a motorcycle as having a 12, 13, 1400 CC motorcycle. That's the real bike that I have to get. And your prices go way, way up from that.

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Does that hold back people from even considering motorcycling or they look at it from the performance perspective and they say, wow, 150, 200 horsepower out of this bike and less than 3 seconds to go 0 to 60. It can be scary for people who are just getting started in motorcycling.

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So are we keeping people out by doing massive, massive displacement? So I'd love to hear what you think. Text the show through the link in the show notes and we'll share your feedback in a in a future episode. Do you think we've gotten too big on engines? Do you think that the power per CC has gotten to the point where we could actually have a better situation with some smaller bikes? I'd love to hear what you think.

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So let's wrap up. I mean, obviously we've talked about a few things in this episode.

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Engine displacement has continued to be climbing. Engine power has continued to climb.

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We're generating far more power out of each CC than we did before. A lot of that has to do with moving from carburetors to fuel injection. We're getting much better performance out of each individual unit. That efficiency has gone up, which is great, but the reality is that motorcycle performance beats most cars already, even on the low end. So how much do we really need? And we talked about, of course, prices have been climbing with that displacement.

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So it's it's getting more expensive for motorcycles than it was in the past. And this is something I feel is sort of a worry to me. To me, I think the real sweet spot is that middleweight. That middleweight motorcycle is really where you're going to find, you know, a great value. It's going to have more performance than you probably need for most road going use if you're going to a track, different situation. But if you're going for most street use, middleweight is probably going to be the best bang for buck in terms of giving you that.

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But I'd love to know what you think text the show through the link in the shownotes and we'll share your feedback in a future episode. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

Displacement Dispelling: Motorcycle Engine Evolution

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